Imam leads House prayer
by Michael C. Bender | April 27th, 2009
As usual, the Florida House opened session today with a prayer. But for the first time this year (and possibly the first time ever), that prayer was led by an imam, Qasim Ahmed, from the Islamic Learning Institute in Tampa.
The prayer was videotaped by Ahmed Bedier, United Voices of America director, who remarked on the absence of House Majority Leader Adam Hasner, R-Boca Raton. Bedier said he was videotaping the “historic” moment.
“We did notice Hasner’s empty chair. That’s definitely noticed,” Bedier said.
Hasner led a press conference on Muslim Day at the Capitol last month to protest Bedier’s organization. This weekend, Hasner hosted a “Free Speech Summit” with controversial writer Geert Wilders, leading the Council On American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) to demand Hasner be removed from his leadership position.
Hasner said he wasn’t on the floor this morning for personal reasons and noted the iman was in the House at the invitation of Rep. Jim Waldman, D-Coconut Creek.
“It’s Jim Waldman’s right as a member to invite whomever he wants,” Hasner said.
Tags: Adam Hasner, State House
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April 27th, 2009 at 10:23 am
It is nice that our state government is making moves toward inclusion of all Floridians and unfortunate that the Majority Leader continues in outdated, exclusionary behavior. (Please note that the headline for this article includes a typo of “Iman” for “Imam”. I don’t think Mrs. David Bowie led the prayer.)
April 27th, 2009 at 10:27 am
Sura (8:55) – Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve
Sura (48:29) – Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves
Sura (9:30) – And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah… Allah (Himself) fights against them. How perverse are they!
Sura (8:12) – I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them
Sura (9:123) – O you who believe! Fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness
Sura (5:33) – The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement
These verses come from five different places in the Qur’an. There are dozens of others scattered throughout that advocate violence in open-ended fashion. There are hundreds more that speak of hatred and hell toward Christians, Jews, and other non-believers. (Is it any wonder that the Muslim world is split largely between those who tacitly support Islamic terror and those who do nothing about it?)
April 27th, 2009 at 10:30 am
Cate, Thanks for catching the typo.
April 27th, 2009 at 10:44 am
http://www.aliennationreport.com/JIHAD.html
April 27th, 2009 at 11:21 am
This is a politically incorrect religion that wants respect from others while wanting to kill anyone who doesn’t believe as they do. I would support an Imam giving a prayer if he would speak about tolerance. How many people would protest if the KKK were to have a pastor who supported them, pray in the public forum. Neither is what this country is about.
April 27th, 2009 at 11:21 am
All those quotes from the Quran, Christian are quite obviously mistranslated. The reason why I say so is because my close friend converted recently to Islam and I am sure if she had read those quotes from the Koran she would have never became a Muslim.
April 27th, 2009 at 11:34 am
Jane…please provide the correct translation then.
April 27th, 2009 at 11:48 am
Me? I have a suggestion for you…go to a local mosque.
It doesn’t really need a high IQ to know what you are saying is deliberately mistranslated. You are probably someone with an evil agenda for all I care.
What I know is Muslims have here way before 9/11. We have never seen anything of what you are saying.
I have Muslim friends in the Middle East. Thankfully I am not living in a vacuum. I go out often.
I just hope in the end you don’t take my words here and start attacking me! We have heard in the past of what people like you do.
April 27th, 2009 at 11:50 am
Go to this website for the Translations of the Qur’an:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/quran_teaches.htm
The excerpted passages from the Qur’an at faithfreedom.org link to the University of Southern California’s Muslim Studies Department translation.
Sorry, Jane. Someone needs to show your friend what she’s signed up for.
April 27th, 2009 at 11:52 am
Terror
3:151
We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.
8:60
And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to terrorize thereby the enemy of Allah…
8:12
I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
April 27th, 2009 at 11:58 am
again..this is not for you, Christian..but people who are reading this comment section…go out and learn the truth…
websites like what this person provides are just some people with an agenda.
We are in America , sir. We have respect for one another…and from what i have seen from the majority of Muslims in America is respect.
I will be sure to tell my friend your advice… since you do’nt like it that she has a freedom of religion…
April 27th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
Jane..no one is attacking you. Christians go by the words of the Bible when Christ says to love your enemies. No where does Christ say to kill those who don’t believe in Him.
April 27th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
then why are you here wasting your time if you are a good Christian? DId Jesus promote hatred towards people?
I think many Christians and Jews would have been dead by now in the Middle East going by that terminology…”kill those who do’nt believe”…hahaha…you are ridiculous Mr. Christian.
Have work to do…nice chatting with you
April 27th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Christian the problem with your choice of Ayats (verse) from the Qur’an is how you interpret the word believe. To disbelieve you must reject the message. Plus you must look at the Prophet Muhammad’s(PBUH) actions. He prayed with and protected Christians and Jews while in Madina. The Qur’an was not sent for just the Muslims. It was sent as guidance for all mankind. That is why you will see Ayats opening with “O Ye who believe…” a lot of the time. The other problem with your interpretation is that you must know when these Ayats (verses) were revealed and what was going on at the time of the revelation. See you are as guilty as those who commit terrorism by only pointing out a few parts of the Qur’an as they use them for their twisted reason for obtaining political means. As Jane said above you should take the time to go to a local Islamic Center and get the right answers. I myself am a convert to Islam and come from a Christian family and would never sign up for something that taught to harm them. There is a lot more to it than what you choose to focus on. May Allah give you and anyone who has been wrongly guided about Islam guidance to know the Truth. Ameen.
April 27th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Khalil, suppose a young average Muslim man without much formal education in, say, Damascus, Syria reads the Quran including the verses cited above. What will be in his mind? Will he think, “Oh, I will have to study the historic background of these verses to really understand what they mean.”? Certainly not! He will simply take them literally!
You said that Mohammed protected Jews and Christians im Medina. This may be true. But on the other hand he slaughtered and enslaved the Jewish tribe of the Banu Qurayza in the same time period. Which of his deeds do you want to emulate?
And, finally, why are you so sure that your personal interpretation of the Quran and the Hadith is correct and all others are false?
Amen.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
Jane: Majority of muslims are peace loving inspite of islam and I am one of them. But quran promotes violence and our prophet was a very violent man.Take it from me, I was born into it.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
Ali…anyone can write anonymous names here
you are probably 1 out 0 that says what you say
..strop trying to get the last word in
April 27th, 2009 at 6:11 pm
carlos it doesnt take a genius to interpret the QUran…and I read it everyday…and no it does not say what you claim it to say you LIAR.
However in the Jewsih Torah..it says to kill all that BREATHES in Israel.
Does it not say that ?
Judaism is the true terror.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:21 pm
Carlos,
Carlos said: suppose a young average Muslim man without much formal education in, say, Damascus, Syria reads the Quran including the verses cited above. What will be in his mind? Will he think, “Oh, I will have to study the historic background of these verses to really understand what they mean.”? Certainly not
Abu Malik’s answer:
You are wrong carlos. Every Muslim must understand how Quran verses were revealed. If an average man could not do it by himself, he needs to go to knowlegeable people to educate him or her. You MUST not take verses from Quran and interpret them your own way. This is absolutely wrong. Understanding Quran is like learning science. You need to learn it from scholars. Prophete Mohamed, peace upon him, fought jews because they betrayed a covenant that was established between jews and Muslims back then. In addition, Jews wanted to kill the prophete Mohamed (peace be upon him). That is why he fought them. Jews were living peacefully under the Islamic state when the prophete Mohamed was alive. You must read history.
Carlos said:
And, finally, why are you so sure that your personal interpretation of the Quran and the Hadith is correct and all others are false?
Abu Malik’s answer:
The interpretation of the Quran and the hadith was done by the scholars who are the expert in the field. No one can interpret Quran or Hadith his/her own way.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
Prophet Muhammed peace be up on him treated every one equally. The muslims were dealt with Islamic law, the jews were dealt with jewish law and the cristians were dealt with their law. There is also time where a tribe of jews were killed but as per jewish law.
You have to read the history to understand the prosecution. There were some jews who betrayed the people of Madina during the time of war. The pople who were betrayed were prosecuted as per jewish law then.
Being said that, it is also from the same quran you can see verses like, “dont argue with the people of the book”.. And Quran is not for individuals who are malice and cunning. If a person is looking for guidance from God and then he reads it, he will get the answer. If he is infected by some diseases in his mind and if he reads it, then it acts as a mirror showing the readers nature !!.
To understand the true essesnce of Quran, the person who want to understand should read prophet Muhammed’s life.
April 27th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
Has it occurred to anyone that perhaps Mr. Hasner is a devout Christian (or some other non-Muslim faith) and as such chose to not participate in a Muslim prayer as a personal matter with regard to his own faith? So many Muslims seem to act with indignation when they are confronted with non-Muslim expressions of faith (displays of crosses, for example), when all they need to do is simply ignore the expression, as Mr. Hasner did.
In order for tolerance to work, it must be applied in both directions.
April 27th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
Real Ali, why do you insult me by calling me a liar? Is that your way to be polite?
By the way, I am not a Jew and therefore I will not discuss the Thora with you.
Abu Malik, you and I know that there are many hate preachers out there who teach their followers the specific interpretation of the Quran which they like.
Of course, every sura and every verse in the Quran has its historic context. One of the weak points of the Quran, however, is, that this context is not given directly in the Quran. In the Bible, on the other hand, the historic context is very clear. Therefore it is evident that all the “hate verses” from the Bible which are so often quoted by Muslims can hardly be misinterpreted without taking them out of their context. The Quaranic verses do not have a context which makes the Quran a very difficult book to understand.
Let me give you a “classic” verse from the Quran:
(9:123) O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).
How do you interpret this verse? Or in other words, where do you find the appropriate interpretation?
April 27th, 2009 at 7:13 pm
Come on, Islam is pure terror, just look to must Muslims countries: Pakistan, Iran, Egypt, etc, Christians, Jews, Buddhist, etc are not allowed. Their churches are burn down, they are persecuted by the “Religious Police”, their women are force to cover themselves. Their prophet had a 6 year old wife, in other words these people follow a pedophile. Just look to their demonstrations in Europe, their signs: “Freedom go to Hell” “Behead those who attack Islam”, these are their own words. These are the followers of Islam. Islam is a Cult not a religion.
April 27th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
Wow, what an amazing collection of misinformation/propaganda!
1) The “Torah of the Jews” is the first five books of the Old Testament. Anyone on this list is welcome to drive themselves crazy looking for a command to the current generation to “kill everything that breathes in Israel.” It’s possible some creative translation claims that phrase is in there (it’s not in the original Hebrew) but even if so, one has to remember that the key difference between the Old Testament and the Koran is that the OT is a historical document, chronicling how the early Jews comported themselves, both good and bad stuff. Only a small portion of the Torah dictates laws for Jews to follow. The laws contain nothing like you state, in any form. Nothing even remotely close. The Koran, however, is supposed to be equally valid for all generations, everything said in it is supposed to be binding upon the current generation (barring abrogations), and every single thing Mohammed did is supposed to be *activly emulated* by every Muslim on earth. That includes broken treaties, attacks on peaceful caravans to collect loot, the slaughter of an entire city of Jews because they fought not to be ruled by Mohammed, the slaughter of peaceful poets who wrote verses about Mohammed that he found unflattering, the rape of women whose slaughtered husbands’ bodies were still warm, sexual activity (albeit not vaginal penetration) with a six year old girl, etc, etc. Dont’ argue with me about whether this stuff is in the Koran or Hadith, it’s not anything the faith is ashamed of, so all the serious Islamic sites (including Middle Eastern Fatwa research sites) acknowledge those verses.
Especially the ones coming out of the Islamic country whose job it is to provide reliable information.
So…if the Bible records that the ancient Hebrews did something really shitty, Jews learn from it and then teach “wow, they did a REALLY shitty thing, we need to never repeat that!” Whereas everything Mohammed did, without exception, is supposed to be imitated by modern Muslims. That is the very concept behind the Koran, and Islam.
A recent survey showed that more than 90% of Muslims have never read the Koran and Hadith. In the West, the number is even higher. Has your converted friend really read *all* of these documents? Or just a few of the friendly Meccan verses? Go have her google “abrogate” and “Medinan verses” in whatever serious Islamic site she likes. I, personally, read the stuff written specifically for Muslims, coming out of the hardcore Islamic countries, and once you get past the stuff that was specifically written as propaganda, and into the actual religious teachings, it’s pretty ugly stuff. Sorry.
Memri.org translates Islamic scholars lecturing in Arabic in Islamic countries, go check out the discussions of how Allah wants men to beat their wives (not “if” he wants that; that is an accepted part of the faith; they have TV debates over how it should be done)
2) “Jews killed by Jewish law”. Wow, that is the most bizarre claim I have *ever* seen about this period, and I thought I’d read them all. A claim that one is applying “Jewish law’, when it is weilded against a people for defending itself from invasion, forced conversion and destruction of its peaceful trade caravans, and ultimately attempting to destroy the man responsible for those things, is the height of arrogance.
3) google Khaybar.
4) google Abrogation. Then guess whether the verses that attracted all you Westerners to Islam have been abrogated by more violent verses, or not.
5) Check out Robert Spencers “the Truth about Mohammed”. And before anyone starts protesting that he makes things up…every single thing in it is a *direct* quote from the Koran and Hadith. KNowledgable Muslims don’t deny this stuff. They just don’t think there is anythign wrong with it.
6) I also recommend “A Simple Koran”, whic is all the text of the Koran, translated into English, organized by subject and/or chronological order, and with exhaustive notes on teh background of every single incident and quote, so that every person can fully understand where every quote comes from. Read it and make up your own mind. (And expect the Arabic crowd to complain that “nothing in English counts”, because it is more important to chant an Arabic text one does not understand, than attempt to read enough scholarly translations to understand it.
But then, we get back to the “90% of Muslims haven’t read the whole Koran”.
I’m a Jew. I’m not *allowed* to pray to gods that are not the one God of Abraham. Christian prayers make me uncomfortable becuase my faith does not allow me to acknoweldge Jesus as the Son of God, but basically, it’s still the same God at issue. I was raised to believe the same was true of Islam, that it was a religion worthy of great respect, one of three great Abrahamic faiths that shares the same core doctrine. However…the God of Abraham doesn’t order men to beat their wives, or care how you wipe your ass after defacating. (Yes, Mohammed gave direct orders on the period equivalent of how much toilet paper to use). Sorry, guys…this is not the same God I worship. So you are welcome to pray to him if you want to, but my own faith does not allow me to participate in that prayer. ANd I respect any Jew, Christian, Hindu, Athiest, or whatever, that honors their own faith and leaves quietly when they are in that position, because that is what being true to your God is all about.
4) read the Koran. The WHOLE thing.
April 27th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
Warmongering Christians (such as neoconservatives in America) are fortunate to follow a prophet with a nonrepresentative, unhelpful political scenario. Jesus led no revolution, established no law, and conquered no people. Thus, Christians can invent their own grisly rules for warfare while attributing no blame to christianity. It’s having their cake and eating it too. Rather,a Christian should look to previous prophets for their guidance on warfare. But if they actually did that, they’d certainly be nazis. The Hebrews were indeed ordered to annihilate utterly every living creature in the holy land, merely for the crime of being there first.
April 27th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
Concerning the Qur’an quotes, they are NOT mistranslated,and they are NOT misunderstood. Muslims know how to interpret them, and that’s why christian and jewish minorities live in every Muslim country, and why Muslims are not literally attacking everyone else. Warfare in our modern era is due to colonialism and nationalism, not Islam.
The Qur’an quotes make perfect sense if you interpret them the way Muslims do. The Qur’an was revealed piece by piece according to the scenarios Muhammad faced, over 23 years. Because Muhammad was a Moses-like prophet, instructed to conquer and establish God’s worship in the land, he had to overcome his enemies and make war the way Moses did. However, we Muslims do not beleive Moses was as savage as the old testament claims he was.
The war verses refer to a war between the Muslims and various pagan and Jewish Arab tribes. A “disbeliever” or Kafir meant someone who fought against Islam, as Kafir means “one who buries” the way a farmer buries a seed. The Seed of truth will grow despite being buried, is the metaphor.
A major problem at the time was Muslims were made of various tribes, people who left their families to join Islam’s universal brotherhood. They still had notions of tribe loyalty, and were still afraid to offend the tribe. In battle some early Muslims were willing to kill enemies of other tribes, but wanted revenge if their own relatives were killed on the enemy side. That’s why the Qur’an says “A believer Must not be killed for killing an ENEMY”, no matter who he’s related to on the Muslim side. Tribal alliegences are dead.
Thus, the Qur’an urged them on to identify with Muslims, and fight the enemy no matter which tribe they came from. In a state of war, a Muslim band may attack the Kafir units wherever they are. They are kind to one another as brothers in Islam but are HARSH against the enemy (even if they are relatives). AND YET, Muslims are forbidden from harming animals, trees, buildings, unarmed men, women, and children.
Even after Muhammad’s uncle was mutilated on the battlefield by Kafirs, and he wanted revenge, the Qur’an forbade him from mutilating enemies right back. Unless you knew the context, you wouldn’t notice this prohibition, but Muslims DO know the context.
The verse of cutting off heads and finger-tips is deliberately cropped. Allah is here telling Angels to do so, which resulted in a major victory of 300 over 1000, with only 14 casualties on the Muslim side.
I have a feeling if you Islam-haters wrote your own holy verses on what you think Jesus wants Americans to do, it would say “An American should never be tried for warcrimes” “Go drop cluster bombs and let them lose legs for generation after generation.” “White phosphorus will melt the skins of the nonamericans!” “Go make war upon those who might have WMDs, and do not count thier bodies.” “The life of a marine is worth 10 times the life of a nonamerican.” “If one terrorist is among one hundred innocents, the terrorist is at fault when you bomb them all”
Jeez, compared to the realistic verses of the Qur’an, i’d expect America’s guidebook is truly chilling.
April 27th, 2009 at 9:36 pm
Abu save the con about the translation Islam is a violent religion.
From a scholar who knew more about Islam than you will ever know. Mohammad himself was a terrorist.
Ayatollah Khomeini
Khomeini accordingly delivered notorious rebuke to the Islam-is-a-religion-of-peace crowd: “Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]…. Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Qur’anic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.”
April 27th, 2009 at 9:36 pm
To the foolish converts here. You were suckered. Educate yourselves.
April 27th, 2009 at 10:14 pm
Hahaha. I never made any argument that Islam forbade war, especially in an age of constant warfare and conquest.
I find it funny that troublemakers like you quote Ayatollah Khomeini as if he’s an authority for Islam. First of all, Ayatollah Khomeini is not a Caliph or universal Muslim authority. His words are NOT a source of Islamic law. Furthermore, he was a SHIITE imam, and the majority of all Muslims, 86%, are Sunni. We do not recognize his words as having the force of law. He is entitled to his opinion, especially considering his circumstances.
Ayatollah Khomeini was a revolutionary Imam who was encouraging an oppressed people to fight back. He was the leader of a revolution against a virulently despotic King, who persecuted his Muslim subjects and killed and tortured more people than the current Iranian government has since. In fact, i would say the violent action Khomeini called for was completely justified, and i am glad God taught us how to do so correctly. Otherwise, we would be like christians- dropping napalm on villages because ‘christian love’ leaves them utterly without guidance on the battlefield.
No, Islam does not forbid war, because war (as America so often proves in its violent conquests) is a reality of life. Thankfully, islamic principles had a moderating effect on history’s conflicts. During the crusades there was even a council of scholars who determined that Trebuchets should be forbidden, because they destroy buildings and homes arbitrarily.
History is ugly, but never think Islam is weakened by its recognition of war as a crucial part of life. Rather, we are the ONLY RELIGION to explicitly forbid the killing of civilians in wartime. Others either pretend war doesn’t exist (buddhism/christianity) or urge a holocaust against entire races (Judaism vs canaan).
April 27th, 2009 at 10:26 pm
All of the lies and distortion of the anti-Muslim bigots may certainly taken as truth. In that case, you may arm yourselves and rally against religious freedom for Muslims without ever taking their side of the story. You can join this gang of fearful paranoid schizophrenics who are ready to deny us our civil rights and religious freedoms, OR….
or, before you wage ideological war against 1 billion people, you can find out what WE say about each of these events. A good honest history of Muhammad’s life and policies from legitimate historians who DONT automatically hate Islam, will address each and every one of the issues raised by the terrified Jewish lady above. Do not assume we ignore or avoid these topics, but rather find a good long book on how we justify them.
I guarantee converts have dealt with these issues before. Islam cannot be the boogeyman these idiots say it is. Find the truth from a strong American Muslim, or a religion scholar.
April 27th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
“Do not call them (pagan idol worshipers) Kafir as a means of confiscating their belongings. Rather, they are how you once were, and Allah guided you.”
There is no permission, let alone command, to victimize or attack nonMuslims.
April 27th, 2009 at 10:34 pm
Religion: the opiate of the masses………
more wars have been fough and more people slaughtered over differences of religion– than anything else.
If you’ll notice: these blogs dealing with religious topics here on the POST (this blog & the other one dealing with the Fla Legislature trying to vote in 2 new license plates: one with jesus crucified on it and another one with a stained glass cross) –have much much more comments than ANY other blogs by the POST ever have——–
which goes to show the emotions and HEAT religion stirs up among everybody!
If we were truly a “SMART” country — we would make it a federal LAW that nobody is allowed to discuss or speak about religion except in their HOMES or in their places of worship.
April 27th, 2009 at 10:54 pm
The Jews of Medina were of three tribes: Beni Quraitha, Beni QainuQa’, and Beni Nadir. They wanted to overpower the pagans of Medina and evict them. When Muhammad arrived he united the warring pagans with Islam, and the Jewish tribe’s ambition to control Medina was thwarted.
They sent a delegation from each tribe to meet Muhammad, and asked if he were a Jew who had come to annihilate the pagans (as the Hebrews did) and help the Jews rule Medina. Instead he said he was an Arab, and all humans are equal regardless of their race. So no, Medina would belong to those who followed God’s prophet, not a specific race. (This racial exclusivity in Judaism continues today, with Israel’s requirement that it remain ethnically Jewish in population.)
Muhammad treated these tribes as 3 whole tribes, and not Jews in general. He had them sign a constitution wherein ALL PARTIES had to defend Medina if the pagans attacked.
Years later Medina was besieged by 10,000 pagans, and the Beni Quraitha decided as a tribe to make a deal with them. Their deal was they would let the Ghatafan tribe of pagans march through their Datepalm orchards and attack the Muslims from Behind. In return, they would collect the Muslim’s women and children as loot.
Fortunately, a long storm eventually dispersed the 10,000 pagans, and the Beni Quraitha were left alone, conspirators suddenly vulnerable. They immediately locked their quarter of the city, because they knew they had been actively undermining the defense.
Jews who individually came out to defend Medina were considered as honoring the Pact. The tribe as a whole however, agreed on the betrayal and expected to gain reward.
Muhammad did judge them according to their law. It was known that the Arab Jews, being tribal, would punish betrayal by executing the men of the offending tribe. Thus, this is what happened to that Jewish tribe.
When one Jewish tribe sent assassins to kill Muhammad, he did not punish them with death, but merely eviction. Another previously evicted tribe actively joined the 10,000 pagans against him outside the walls, and he merely evicted them further to Yemen.
It was only THIS SPECIFIC tribe, 700 beni Quraitha men, that was executed, and it must be remembered that they were earnestly hoping the pagans would do exactly the same thing to the Muslims. They were calculating which families would collect which property and loot once the Muslims were annihilated.
So lets not make this a simple pogrom. This is a complex cultural and political situation, with predictable and altogether understandable results.
April 27th, 2009 at 11:01 pm
Hahahaha…. Yeah, Pope. Lets make a law that people who talk about religion publicly be punished. someone should do tha-…oh….oh, CHINA does that. I forgot.
Communism, and national pride (in the form of Atheist China, Atheist Russia, and Racial supremacist Germany) have killed more people this century than religion ever has. Religion is the only thing in this entire universe that tells ANYONE to be good to ANYONE else.
Morality rides on the coattails of religion. Without a cosmic force of justice, sociopathy would be man’s perfect state of mind.
April 27th, 2009 at 11:05 pm
But no hard feelings, Pope. That’s just my opinion, from what i’ve learned of modern history.
April 27th, 2009 at 11:59 pm
sue welcome to the world of mistranslation.
christopher burn with jealousy
churchers are burned in the middle east?
u seriously need help. get out of ur egg shell. the world is a beauiful place.
April 28th, 2009 at 12:21 am
Never trust anyone that thinks Mohammed was a good example……..
Mohammed was the best liar, and lying to the Kuffar (non-believers) is just fine……..
Bukhari 3,49,857 Mohammed:”A man who brings peace to the people by MAKING UP good words, or by saying NICE THINGS, though UNTRUE, does not LIE.”
still think he is a good example???
Here is an example of Mohammed lying to make peace……..
Hadith BUkhari 3,41,601 Hisham recited one chapter of the Koran differently from my [Umar's] manner. Mohammed had taught me to read it the way he read it, so after prayers, I grabbed him physically and dragged him to Mohammed and said,”He is not reciting the Koran in the manner you taught me.”
I released Hisham and Mohammed asked him to recite the chapter in question. Afterward, Mohammed said,”That is the way it was revealed.” (By the angel Gabriel) Then he asked me to recite the chapter, and again, Mohammed said,”That is the way it was revealed. The Koran was revealed seven times, in seven styles. Recite it the way that is easiest for you.”
If you study the life of Mohammed and read the Sira and Hadith Collections along with the Quran you can easily make sense of Mohammed the lying, thief, rapist, murderer, slave owning, woman beating piece of garbage that he was……..
April 28th, 2009 at 12:23 am
I should note after my last comment that Mohammed had to make peace between the Muslims themselves in the example I gave…….. the non-believers, including Mohammeds own family members who did not accept Islam were killed or enslaved…….
April 28th, 2009 at 1:10 am
Let us share fews verses from the Quran
Surah 5:Ayat: 82-83 “And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud. When they listen to that which hath been revealed unto the messenger, thou seest their eyes overflow with tears because of their recognition of the Truth. They say: Our Lord, we believe. Inscribe us as among the witnesses”
Surah 5: Ayat :17. In blasphemy indeed are those that say that
Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: “Who then hath the least power
against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his
mother, and all every – one that is on the earth? For to Allah
belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is
between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all
things.”
I hope this beautiful U tube will inspires us.
A Catholic TV asked Sheikh Yusuf Estes- Why he Converted to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8i0Xvps8sg
May Almighty God the Creator bless us and show us the truth
Cheers
April 28th, 2009 at 1:16 am
What non Muslim said about Muhammad (peace be upon him)
http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/quote1.html
April 28th, 2009 at 1:58 am
I wanted make some comments but then I said why, looking at the language of these people I find that they have no faith at all in any religion with that kind of people it is just waste of time they are full of hatred one can only feel pity for them. If they only knew the most important thing that this is the continuation of eastern civilization. All the knowledge that we use today putting the man on the moon to the little cell phones we use that came from Islam, Muslims never used that knowledge to develop the weapons of mass destruction instead they used more humanitarian and peaceful purposes .
It is like some reach parents bought fancy sports car who is completely illiterate do you think do you think he would be aware of what he got, all the technology that went into that automobile. I will try to put it another way, a third or forth grade student drop off, if you enrolled him a college for medicine how would he would do.
The point I am trying to make is these people they read here and there what ever they like and they think they understand the Book of God, even the most learned scholars have trouble some times interpreting it.Hassan ALHUMDULILLAH DESCRIBE IT WELL.
April 28th, 2009 at 2:11 am
I wanted make some comments but then I said why, looking at the language of these people I find that they have no faith at all in any religion with that kind of people it is just waste of time they are full of hatred one can only feel pity for them. If they only knew the most important thing that this is the continuation of eastern civilization. All the knowledge that we use today putting the man on the moon to the little cell phones we use that came from Islam, Muslims never used that knowledge to develop the weapons of mass destruction instead they used more humanitarian and peaceful purposes .
It is like some reach parents bought fancy sports car who is completely illiterate do you think do you think he would be aware of what he got, all the technology that went into that automobile. I will try to put it another way, a third or forth grade student drop off, if you enrolled him a college for medicine how would he would do.
The point I am trying to make is these people they read here and there what ever they like and they think they understand the Book of God, even the most learned scholars have trouble some times interpreting it.Hassan ALHUMDULILLAH DESCRIBE IT WELL.If it is not for our beloved prophets this human race may not have lasted this long.
There are sings in it for wise peolpe.
April 28th, 2009 at 3:53 am
Hassan, your explanations about the historic context during the sojourn of Mohammend in Medina are quite interesting and reasonable. But my question to you is: How are average Muslims who do not spend all their time studying background material supposed to come to these conclusions?
You simply said that Muslims “know” how to interpret the Quran. Well, I mean, bin Laden and al Sawahiri and Muhammad Atta “know” that too. Just their conclusions are somewhat different from yours, which causes a lot of trouble in the west, and even more so in islamic countries like Iraq and Pakistan.
We in the west see Islam mainly as a security problem. That is the reason why many westerners have educated themselves on Islam and the Quran. The way we read the Quran is probably exactly the way the terrorists read it. We take the words written in there literally. This way we get a good explanation about the motives of the terrorists. The fact that there are more moderate interpretations which consider all the historic background is interesting, but not helpful in this context.
We find the explanations we were looking for directly in the Quran by simply reading it.
April 28th, 2009 at 5:24 am
To “Christian Says” on his message “Terror”, you have not given a very good translation or context of the Surahs that you are supposed to be quoting. I find it saddening that those of you out there who rant and rave about Islam fail to understand, is, that the word Allah, is just the Arabic word for God. It does not indicate that those of us who are Muslim pray to another god or a heathen god or demon. Those of you out there that hate the Muslims need to investigate for yourselves what Islam is all about, and not rely on people like Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck, Wilders or even this Hasner person. So, here goes showing what the context and text of the verses are about:
Surah 3 (The House of Imran): 150-151 – “Nay, God alone is your Lord Supreme, and His is the best succor. {150} Into the hearts of those who are bent on denying the truth We shall cast dread in return for their ascribing divinity, side by side with God, to other beings – something for which He has bestowed any warrant from on high; and their goal is the fire – and how evil that abode of evildoers! {151}”
Surah 5 (The Repast): 31 – 33 – “Thereupon God sent forth a raven which scratched the earth, to show him how he might conceal the nakedness of his brother’s body. And Cain cried out: ‘Oh woe is me!’ Am I then too weak to do what this raven did, and to conceal the nakedness of my brother’s body?’ – and was thereupon smitten with remorse. {31}
“Because of this did We ordain unto the children of Israel that if anyone slays a human being – unless it be in punishment for murder or for spreading corruption on earth – it shall be as though he had slain all mankind; whereas, if anyone saves a life, it shall be as though he had saved the lives of mankind.
And, indeed, there came upon them Our apostles with all evidence of the truth: yet, behold, notwithstanding all this, many of them go on committing all manner of excesses on earth. {32}
“It is but a just recompense for those who make war on God and His apostles, and endeavor to spread corruption on earth, that they are being slain in great numbers, or crucified in great numbers, or are being entirely banished from the face of the earth: such is their ignominy in this world. But in the life to come yet more awesome suffering awaits them – {33} save for such of them as repent ere you O believers become more powerful than they: for you must know that God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.” {34}
Surah 8 (Spoils of War): 12 – 14 – “Lo! Thy Sustainer inspired the angels to convey this His message to the believers: ‘I am with you!’
“And He commanded the angels: ‘And give firmness unto those who have attained to faith with these words from me: ‘I shall cast terror into the hearts of those who are bent on denying the truth; strike, then, their necks, O believers, and strike off every one of their finger-tips!’ {12}
“This, because they have cut themselves off from God and his Apostle: and as for him who cuts himself off from God and his Apostles – verily, God is severe in retribution. {13} This for you, O enemies of God! Taste it, then, and know that suffering through fire awaits those who deny the truth!” {14}
Surah 8 (Spoils of War): 54 – 55 – “To those sinners shall happen the like of what happened to Pharaoh’s people and those who lived before them: they gave the lie to their Sustainer’s message – and so We destroyed them in return for their sins, and caused Pharaoh’s people to drown: for they were evildoers all. {54} Verily, the vilest creatures in sight of God are those who are bent on denying the truth and therefore do not believe. {55}
Surah 8 (Spoils of War): 60 – “Hence, make ready against them whatever force and mounts you are able to muster, so that you might deter thereby the enemies of God, who are your enemies as well, and others besides them of whom you may be unaware, but of whom God is aware; and whatever you expend in God’s cause shall be repaid to you in full, and you shall not be wronged. {60} But if they incline to peace, incline thou to it as well, and place thy trust in God: verily He alone is all-hearing, all-knowing! {61} And should they seek but to deceive thee by their show of peace – behold, God is enough for thee!
“He it is who has strengthened thee with His succor, and by giving thee believing followers {62} whose hearts He has brought together: for, if thou hadst expended all that is on earth, thou couldst not have brought their hearts together by thyself: but God did bring them together. Verily, He is almighty, wise. {63}”
Surah 9 (Repentance): 123 “O you who have attained to faith! Fight against those deniers of truth who are near you, and let them find you adamant; and know that God is with those who are conscious of Him.” {123}
These are as accurate of translations as I can give you, the site you recommended for translations of the Holy Qur’an is an anti-Islam site, so therefore it should not be relied upon for true and accurate translations. You also have a tendency to not include, the context of the Surahs and verses, in other words not the complete wisdom of the verse cluster. Take the following Surah and verse cluster to heart and live by it.
I am going to leave this little bit of wisdom from the Holy Qur’an. It comes from Surah 31, verses 17 – 19.
“ ‘O my dear son,” Be constant in prayer, and enjoin the doing of what is right and forbid the doing of what is wrong, and bear in patience whatever ill may befall thee: this, behold, is something to set one’s heart upon! {17}
“And turn not thy cheek away from people in false pride, walk not haughtily on earth: for, behold, God does not love anyone who, out of self-conceit, acts in a boastful manner. {18}
“Hence, be modest in thy bearing, and lower thy voice: for, behold, the ugliest of all voices is the loud voice of asses. . .” {19}
Peace be with you,
Shelly,
LPN(ret), HM2(FMF)/USN, Sgt/USAR, ACM/olc, VNeVet, GWVet, VFW/DAV Life Member.
April 28th, 2009 at 5:36 am
Carlos;
There is only one way to read the Holy Qur’an and that is how the Prophet (pbub)wrote it. Unfortunately there are as many varities of the Qur’an as there are of the Bible. The way you learn from the Qur’an is to have a Imam help you obtain a copy of it. Especialy if you are looking for an English translation.
I would recommend that you find a copy of “The Message of The Qur’an” translated and explained by Muhammad Asad. I have been told that it is one of the best Arabic to English translations you can find and is closest to the actual wording of the Arabic version. It also gives some historical and translation commentary. These commentaries help explain the meaning of the verses.
Be careful of choosing any copy to read if it contains references to the United States. The US was not even discovered by the white men when the Qur’an was written.
Peace be with you.
SHelly,
LPN(ret), HM2(FMF)/USN, Sgt/USAR, ACM/olc, VNeVet, GWVet, VFW/DAV Life Member
April 28th, 2009 at 8:43 am
Shelly K, do you speak for or against Islam? Judging by the verses you quoted, I guess you want to show us all what a violent religion Islam is, right?
There is some basic misunderstanding about my motive and that of many others in the west for our interest in Islam. I am not looking for a new faith! Therefore I will not go into the mosque around the corner and ask the Imam for help.
We in the west only want to learn why some Muslims are a threat to our lives and our security. To find that out we read the basic scriptures of Islam.
Now, please, don’t tell us, that it is all our fault and that all the evil in the world comes from the USA, Europe and, of course, Israel. We know all these tales…
April 28th, 2009 at 9:09 am
First of all, it needs to be said that ‘We’ in the Qur’an refers to God, who is the only one who can punish anyone (because He is grand enough to say ‘we’ as well as ‘I’). It does not refer to Muslims trying to carry out acts of God upon anyone.
Don’t take verses of the Qur’an out of context. Most likely these were taken from hate sites that purposely selected these verses without bothering to explain what they really mean.
I also suggest that you go to a local mosque to ask about the explanation of the verses IN CONTEXT.
As for the whole ‘terror’ part, I’ll explain.
When you live your whole life blind to a certain truth, and then you suddenly discover that the very truth you tried to deny all along is real, you will be terrified of the consequences. Islam believes in the concept of Heaven and Hell, just like Christianity. The terror of Hell is reinforced throughout the Qur’an to motivate people to behave themselves.
Islam is the most comprehensive religion in the world, formulated to give people the perfect societies if everyone, or even most people, would follow the rules. It has always been tolerant of other religions, and Christian and Jewish communities thrived under Islamic rule. Go catch up on your history.
And as for the so-called ‘islamofacists’ and ‘terrorists’, how can you judge a billion people by the actions of specific, uneducated groups? Muslims hate these people more than anyone else because they give us a bad name.
Try to look at things from more than just one side. Don’t believe everything the media feeds you. Hopefully, as Americans we’d be better than that.
April 28th, 2009 at 10:31 am
My dear Carlos
Please provide me the proof if Prophet Muhammad ( Peace be upon him) killed or even hurt any Christian or followers of Jesus during his lifetime.
Cheers
April 28th, 2009 at 10:31 am
[...] what might be the first time in the state, the Florida House of Representatives opened yesterday with a prayer was led by an imam, Qasim Ahmed, fro…. Opening with prayer is nothing new … what’s new is that it was led by an [...]
April 28th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Hasner should receive a medal for not listening to the garbage that muslims pray. The koran says do not take jews and christians as your friends. How can anyone listen to someone that believes in such hatred?
Stop All Muslim Immigration Now!!!
Non muslims are persecuted in almost every muslim nation on earth. Iran has arrested many many of its citisens in the last few months for converting from islam. Read the koran,learn the history of the impearilist muslims who sold the Africans into bondage. Learn the truth.
April 28th, 2009 at 11:03 am
Arah. The prophet said to kill anyone that leaves islam. WHY??? Because no one would be a muslim if they had a choice. The majority of muslims in the world can not read. The majority of the ones that can can not read arabic. Most muslims do not even know what is in the koran. This is why they are muslim. They do not know the hatred that it teaches.
April 28th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Joe shall we expect burning crosses on our front lawns? Your narrow minded view and people like you are the reason for the hatred in the world. You know nothing about the Qur’an and the Muslim people. You sound like you are reading from a pamphlet. Programmed to say what you say. You are saying the same tired things that people who are afraid of Islam say. You fear it because you know nothing about it. When you take the time to go to the right sources and get an accurate view of Islam come to the table and make progress in understanding one another, but until then you should stay on the sidelines and spew your hate. It is a sad state of affairs when people talk loud and spread ignorance. My fellow brothers and sisters have spent a lot of time in this post to give you accurate information about the religion, but you still come with your lack of any real understanding. Search for the truth, it will set you free.
April 28th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
khalil,I have studied islam and its history since 1985 when muslims kidnapped and murder my good friend. It is you who spread falsehoods.
Does the koran say to not take christians and jews as friends??
Was Turkey a christian nation converted by massacre and bloodshed.
Other than Syria where are christians treated fairly in a muslim land.
Why is there any such thing as a muslim land but yet no christian lands.
Did MO state that all who leave islam should be killed.
I have read the koran and then I violated it the most vile way.
MO was a murdering rapist theif. Islam is not a religion and the black rock you worship is the proof.
April 28th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
arah, I have a quotation for you. It is from Bukhari 83 verse 37:
“By Allah, Allah’s Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate.”
The man in point 3 may have become a Christian. Or maybe he converted to Judaism. Whatever, that does not matter at all. The only thing that counts is: Mohammed killed him!
Jesus the Christ had a lot of enemies, too. But he never killed anybody!
April 28th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Abu Malik Says above:
“You are wrong carlos. Every Muslim must understand how Quran verses were revealed. If an average man could not do it by himself, he needs to go to knowlegeable people to educate him or her. You MUST not take verses from Quran and interpret them your own way. This is absolutely wrong….”
It is our understanding, violent jihad against unbelievers is taught by all four “mainstream” schools of Sunni Islam: Shafi’i, Maliki, Hanafi, and Hanbali. Are we in error?
Jaime Says: April 27th, 2009 at 7:13 pm
“Come on, Islam is pure terror, just look to must Muslims countries: Pakistan, Iran, Egypt, etc,”
Jamie, who are you going to believe, these Muslim posters on this forum or your lying eyes?
April 28th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
What is the punishment for treason in a Christian country?
April 28th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
During the prophet’s lifetime he was in conflict with Pagan tribes at all times. Whether you were a Muslim or not didn’t just have to do with belief, it was a statement of loyalty. There are a few people known to have left the fold, but nothing was done to them. Apostacy in that context is better described as treason. The only man punished for treason was a tribeleader who left the Muslims and sided with pagans against them. Another man during the first caliph’s reign took food and weapon aide as a conversion gift, and then used those materials to ambush and slaughter a Muslim caravan. He was punished for “apostacy”, though his action is clearly more than that.
Throughout history Muslims have interpreted this in different ways. The more sophisticated and educated a society, the less your faith was anyone’s business. In the more rough and tumble poorly educated societies they WOULD persecute apostates. But no more and certainly less often, than the church would burn people for heresy.
The fact that Jesus never led a society, made laws, or experienced victory is NOT a strength. How dare anyone take Jesus as the ideal leader, and then overlook completely his utter lack of experience or example. He was never a husband, father, or leader. He never led a community through trials to victory. This is unfortunate, because the result is PAGAN ROME hijacked his religion, and created the Greco-roman trinitarian stoicism you see in America today.
April 28th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Khalil, abandoning once religious faith for another faith is not a treasonable offence.
Is it? You are mixing things up aren’t you?
For a Jew to convert to Christianity or Islam, this is very wrong, but it is not a capital offense to my knowledge.
Is it?
April 28th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
For those who claim to be concerned with how Muslims interpret these verses, i hope you can admit to yourselves that you are seeking a conflict that isnt there. Muslims for the most part do NOT take actions into their own hands. They have a strong tendency to seek the opinions of scholars, and to only follow precedence. They are traditional people who prefer someone in authority to determine these things, and that’s a good thing.
It’s due to a modern breakdown of scholarhood, a government policy worldwide to belittle and cripple Islamic influence, that results in these little pockets of ignorant angry people inventing their own interpretations. Everyone in conflict beieves their conflict is justified, so don’t rely so heavily on ignorant people in conflict for your answers. Rather, find out why fewer Muslims accept civilian casualties than Americans.
Something like 54% of Americans said “killing civilians is sometimes justified”, whereas no more than 28 percent said the same in the Muslim world. Muslims are far more passive and peaceful people than Americans. If a tenth of the stress and offense experienced by Muslims is put upon American’s….well…..did you folks know KKK membership is growing rapidly in the united states?
Christians no NOT more peaceful, and christianity’s ignorance of war is a greenlight to do whatever they want.
I am glad Allah provides us a means to secure justice. Just read up on the founders of the United states, and you’ll see some “Scary, violent” passages about watering liberty trees with blood.
And Khalil, if someone sided with the Soviets against the US, he’d be executed.
April 28th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Hassan, are you saying men like Osama bin Laden, Dr. Ayman Muhammad Rabaie al-Zawahiri, etc., are ignorant angry people inventing their own interpretations?
These are faithful Muslims who are respected by millions of devout Muslims world-wide. The Ulema, no one of prominence in the Middle East (no great scholar) will or can read these devout Muslims out of Islam.
Do you know of any?
April 28th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Hassan, your remarks about Christ are really ridiculous. You have never read the New Testament, right?
So Christ was no leader? You mean, he never ruled with the sword.
You completely ignore that the community he founded and lead was highly successful. You must be blind if you do not see that his teachings were spread all over the world. Today, 2000 years after his death, there are billions of Christians who try to emulate his example.
And the best thing is that he did not need an army or any kind of pressure or violence to spread his teachings. He was a really spiritual leader and still today is the most influential person on earth!
But why was it important for Mohammed to have political power and to punish his ememies? Why was he interested in becoming the dictator of Arabia?
April 28th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
Dear Chrisitian
You are so full of hate,you can ot see though the propoaganda genrated by the neo chrisitian, know Islam is the way for your salvation,why do not you repent ,make shahada ,maybe allah will forgive youe sins .
April 28th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
salah, what do you think is a Neo Christian? You really talk without thinking. I bet you have never even heard of Swedenborg.
That is the trouble with most of you Muslims. You are very uneducated and ignorant and so very proud of both.
Most Muslims simply believe what their Imam tells them. They have no idea that other Imams in other parts of the world, or maybe in another city, teach their crowd something completely different.
Many of you Muslims do not use diverse media to avoid being distracted from the teachings of the “only true religion of peace”. In the internet most of you only visit all these apologetic websites which teach that Islam is a little paradise with white clouds and a huge pile of chocolate chip cookies.
Wake up! The reality is different. And a large part of all the troubles is caused by your dear brothers in the Umma whom you defend so fervently.
So, what you say is simply not convincing because it does not have anything to do with the real world.
April 28th, 2009 at 9:18 pm
Dear salah,
Please go to hell.
I’m certain you would enjoy being in the presence of your pedophile prophet.
Sincerely,
Philip
April 28th, 2009 at 10:20 pm
Christ at his height ruled no more than 12 other guys, and his legacy was immediately hijacked after his head.
And no, Bin laden and his ilk are NOT scholars or Ulema. The Ulema do not agree with their methods or ideology, but if you want a neutered pacifist Islam; something you can intimidate and control (like Tibetan buddhism), then you’re going to be disappointed.
April 28th, 2009 at 10:26 pm
It’s ironic that you folks pretend to be concerned that unfortunate Muslims are misled in droves by violent extremists, and then complain that most Muslims only get to see the fluffy white “chocolate chip” Islam their imams teach. You complain that Muslims learn context and interpretation from moderate scholars rather than wild-eyed mountain men, when that’s allegedly exactly what you want.
Why should we Muslims intentionally seek out people with wicked and distorted interpretations? If a Muslim wants to find an evil interpretation on something, he’d have to go to YOU for it.
You Islam-haters are the only people who see our verses and Hadith in this light. Muslim scholars, and certainly the vast majority of Muslims, do NOT agree with the idiotic interpretation you want.
So yeah. Do you want us to avoid extremism, or are you dead-set on us BECOMING extremists? Just what do you want?
April 29th, 2009 at 12:10 am
My dear Joe.
THe Christian believed that every baby are born sinner unless baptised and become Christian.If any babies die they will go to hell.
We muslim believe babies are born fitrah (Muslim). If babies die they will go to heaven. Everyone are Muslim unless when they become adult, they go against Almighty God the Creator or become kufur.
What is fitrah?
http://www.bt.com.bn/en/node/69031/print
Cheers
April 29th, 2009 at 2:04 am
Islam is than very peaceful religion. The reason christian and other religious belief have touble in muslim land is due to the fact that all these muslim state are really secular state and this also apply to Saudic Arabric. It they where poper Islamist state with Islamic ruler
ruleing by Islamist law they would be well protected. Even under this contition muslim policeman have die protection christian church from attack. Some of these christian newletter saying how badly they are treated mislead people in thewest. Some christian terrorist in Indonesia murder 100 muslim
childern in a school. The government captive then and put then on trail and they executice for they crime rightly so. These newlettle spead lies that government executice then for being christian.
April 29th, 2009 at 2:37 am
For those that have criticized my post and misread the Surah and verses. I did not think I had to put God in parentheses after each place He was referred to in the verses. Like in the Bible, any reference to God the word is started with a capital letter. Those verses that I translated are not preaching the hate that you would like them too.
I converted to Islam after I became fed up with the Christian churches when they started to preaching hatred against a very minor portion of our population, when they preached about hatred towards other faiths. Even after I converted I went to a Christian church with a friend, that ended when the preacher started to preach a sermon about the heathen god that the Muslim’s prayed to. I was fed up with the preachers preaching “Do as I say not as I do.” I haves seen too much hypocrisy, incest and pedophilia within the Christian church and its followers. I have seen less hypocrisy in the Islamic faith, those that teach the Qur’an the way the Prophet (pbwh) wrote, not those who have perverted it and distorted it to meet their vision of the world. I met with one of the local Imam’s while stationed in the Middle East we talked about the Qur’an and the radicals. Since then I have read several versions of the Qur’an and the only one that spoke of the terror that you are afraid of was one that was put out by a radical group. It was a lot shorter than the one I use today and made references to the United States, which did not exist when the Qur‘an was written. How many of you out there sit down on a daily basis and read from your Bible? I try to take time to sit down and read my Qur’an at least once a day, I miss days occasionally, but, I try to read it.
The radical groups that all the world need to be afraid of do not want true followers of the Prophet (pbwh). They want those who do not understand or want to understand the Qur’an or those that are already twisted. Many of you only listen to those people who spew hatred towards the Islamic faith. You listen only to those who do not know anything about the faith. As I read the Qur’an I find peace and love for the rest of the world.
I will pray for all of you out there, who are so blind to what the world is really like.
Shelly
LPN(ret), HM2(FMF)/USN, Sgt/USAR, ACM/olc, VNeVet, GWVet, VFW/DAV Life Member.
April 29th, 2009 at 3:53 am
My dear Shelly K
You have made an excellence choice.
May Allah the Creator be please with you and grant you blessing and happinees in this world and hereafter. AMEEN
A very good book to share with your friends
http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/w_comparison_full.htm
Cheers
April 29th, 2009 at 4:09 am
Hassan Loutfi, keep following your moderate interpretation of the Quran. There is no problem with that.
In discussions with Muslims in many forums about religion I have made the experience that there are basically only two groups of Muslims. 1 The openly violent Muslims who love to insult and curse me, as soon as they realize that I am a Christian who is critical of Islam (and believe me, there are many of them, also in the west) and 2 The moderate Muslims who stick to their interpretation and totally refuse to see and admit that there are violent Muslims, too.
We will probably agree that you have to identify a problem in order to solve it. You moderate Muslims need to admit that there is a problem, because you are the only ones who can really do something about it. The extremists may well be your neighbours. They consider us as outsiders who are not to be taken seriously because we do not follow the words of the prophet. But you can get their trust and convince them that extremism is no solution.
Hassan, you simply don’t get it. Christ ruled through his words, his deeds and his example. Your statements are proof that you have never read the New Testament. I would suggest you read the gospels and you will see clearly what Jesus the Christ really is like.
Shelly K, it looks as if you were in a pretty extreme Christian sect. But now you obviously make the equation Christianity = bigotted and intolerant and Islam = open-minded and tolerant. Do you really think it is that simple?
April 29th, 2009 at 5:25 am
Carlos,
I guess it was an extremist Christian group, they were Baptists. Yeah I do equate Christianity as a bigoted group, most of them live in the “Do as I say, not as I do” group. I have only met a couple of Christians that actually walk the walk and talk the talk.
I believe in the teachings of the Qur’an as the Prophet (pbwh) wrote it and yes it can be that simple.
The Prophet Jesus (pbwh) can be found in the Qur’an. Like the Bible the Qur’an is a compilation of God’s words and teachings on how to treat the people around you. For some reason the Prophet (pbwh) makes references to portions of the Book (Torah, Old Testament) and portions of the Injeel (New Testament. I know, you think because I am now a Muslim you think I am being brain washed. Well, I use that organ, that God gave all of us, the brain, to find meaning and understand the teachings in the Qur‘an. I read what is written in all of the holy books of the Jews, Christians and Muslims. When I have doubts about the meaning of something I talk to the scholar who knows the most about the subject. It is hard to talk to certain members of the clergy because they have closed off their minds to Islam. They want you to hate Islam; they want you to believe that we Muslims pray to a heathen god by the name of Allah, which by the way best translates to English as God. I have never been turned away from Islamic scholars when I have questions. Allah (God) gave us a brain to think with and then gave us knowledge to learn and understand the world around us.
I pray to the one true God, I do not have idols in my home; I have not made a god out of the Prophet Jesus (pbwh), as the Christians have. However he is a Martyr in Islam for murdered on the cross for what he tried to teach all of God‘s children.
I know I could never convince a closed minded apparently bigoted person like you, that Islam is not what the hate mongers of the world want you to believe. You can go on and believe in who ever and what ever you want to, I will still say a prayer for your soul and for you to open your mind to the world around you.
Shelly K
LPN(ret), HM2(FMF)/USN, Sgt/USAR, ACM/olc, VNeVet, GWVet, VFW/DAV Life Member
April 29th, 2009 at 5:29 am
“arah”
Thank you for the kind words.
May Allah watch over you and your family and keep you all safe in this uncertian world. Amen
ShellyK
LPN(ret), HM2(FMF)/USN, Sgt/USAR, ACM/olc, VNeVet, GWVet, VFW/DAV Life Member
April 29th, 2009 at 8:51 am
Shelly K, sure you are being brainwashed. And you admit that you have a very simplistic view of the world. Yes, and of course, you regard all non-Muslims as bigots, just because they can’t accept a very shady personage like Mohammad as a prophet of God.
Actually you had a good idea. I will pray for you too, so that you will be able to see that there is much more both in Islam and in Christianity than you can see at the moment.
May God bless you with his Holy Spirit.
By the way, in Islam you are not allowed to believe that Jesus the Messiah was crucified. Read sura 4 verse 157! Your brainwashing is yet incomplete in this point.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:30 am
My dear Carlos
Why you cherry pick the Quran and not reading the whole story?
Let read the whole story before you can understand ayat 9:123.
9:119 (Y. Ali) O ye who believe! Fear Allah and be with those who are true (in word and deed).
9:120 (Y. Ali) It was not fitting for the people of Medina and the Bedouin Arabs of the neighbourhood, to refuse to follow Allah’s Messenger, nor to prefer their own lives to his: because nothing could they suffer or do, but was reckoned to their credit as a deed of righteousness,- whether they suffered thirst, or fatigue, or hunger, in the cause of Allah, or trod paths to raise the ire of the Unbelievers, or received any injury whatever from an enemy: for Allah suffereth not the reward to be lost of those who do good;-
9:121 (Y. Ali) Nor could they spend anything (for the cause) – small or great- nor cut across a valley, but the deed is inscribed to their credit: that Allah may requite their deed with the best (possible reward).
9:122 (Y. Ali) Nor should the Believers all go forth together: if a contingent from every expedition remained behind, they could devote themselves to studies in religion, and admonish the people when they return to them,- that thus they (may learn) to guard themselves (against evil).
9:123 (Y. Ali) O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
9:124 (Y. Ali) Whenever there cometh down a sura, some of them say: “Which of you has had His faith increased by it?” Yea, those who believe,- their faith is increased and they do rejoice.
9:125 (Y. Ali) But those in whose hearts is a disease,- it will add doubt to their doubt, and they will die in a state of Unbelief.
Do you expect the muslim will just smile or run away when they were being attacked?
Now I know that you are being brain washed but please prevent ourselves from ayat 9:125
Cheers
April 29th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Islam is a peaceful relegion,Christian.
You mentioned surah 8:12 without mentioning the full source,
“Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”(Quran 8:12)
This is in reference to angels who fought at the battle of Badr in Prophet(S.A.W) life.
and also the full verse of 48:29 =”MUHAMMAD is God’s Apostle; and those who are [truly] with him are firm and unyielding towards all deniers of the truth, [yet] full of mercy towards one another. Thou canst see them bowing down, prostrating themselves [in prayer], seeking favour with God and [His] goodly acceptance: their marks are on their faces, traced by prostration. This is their parable in the Torah as well as their parable in the Gospel: [they are] like a seed that brings forth its shoot, and then He strengthens it, so that it grows stout, and [in the end] stands firm upon its stem, delighting the sowers. [Thus will God cause the believers to grow in strength,] so that through them He might confound the deniers of the truth. [But] unto such of them as may [yet] attain to faith and do righteous deeds, God has promised forgiveness and a reward supreme. ”
This does not mean a Muslim should be hateful against unbelievers and force them to believe as the Quran says,
“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things” (2:256)
“And the servants of (GOD) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, “Peace!”(25:63)
April 29th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
The truth about Islam!
http://www.4shared.com/file/87048717/f5bc9b06/common_questions_-_Dr_Zakir_Naik_-_Non-arab_muslims_Group.html
April 29th, 2009 at 6:37 pm
Dear arah, don’t worry, I know what’s in the Quran. But as nobody influences me to believe that the Quran is oh so beautiful I have a different perspective.
Obviously you love quoting verses from the Quran. But the verses before and after 9:123 don’t make the command in it any better.
So your thesis is that weak and peaceful Mohammed had to defend himself constantly against his vile enemies. And just by some remarkable accident, while defending himself constantly, he had conquered the whole Arabian peninsula at the time of his death. And just 100 years later his followers had conquered most countries around the Mediterranean. Poor guys, they just had to defend themselves. There was nothing they could do against it… And except for some brave soldiers who stopped the Islamic hordes close to Tours and Poitiers (in the middle of France!) they would have invaded all of Europe!
April 29th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
By the way, arah, did you know that the Nazis in Germany started World War II for self-defence?
Their armies had been attacked from a broadcasting station in Gliwice on the Polish border. In order to defend themselves they invaded Poland. Sorry about the war, but they couldn’t just wait and watch.
April 30th, 2009 at 1:43 am
My dear Carlos
Tell me what the American and the British are doing in Iraq and Nato in Afganistan?
Tell me why the American drop atomic bom in Nagasaki and Horoshima?
What reference are you using if you have any?
Knowing the Quran does not mean anything. I know and read the bible do not mean I am a Christian
Let not worried about other but let get the guidance from the Creator and have peaceful life in the world and hereafter
2:1 (Y. Ali) A.L.M.
2:2 (Y. Ali) This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.
2:3 (Y. Ali) Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
2:4 (Y. Ali) And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.
2:5 (Y. Ali) They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.
2:6 (Y. Ali) As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
2:7 (Y. Ali) Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).
2:8 (Y. Ali) Of the people there are some who say: “We believe in Allah and the Last Day;” but they do not (really) believe.
2:9 (Y. Ali) Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!
2:10 (Y. Ali) In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).
2:11 (Y. Ali) When it is said to them: “Make not mischief on the earth,” they say: “Why, we only Want to make peace!”
2:12 (Y. Ali) Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.
2:13 (Y. Ali) When it is said to them: “Believe as the others believe:” They say: “Shall we believe as the fools believe?” Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.
2:14 (Y. Ali) When they meet those who believe, they say: “We believe;” but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say: “We are really with you: We (were) only jesting.”
2:15 (Y. Ali) Allah will throw back their mockery on them, and give them rope in their trespasses; so they will wander like blind ones (To and fro).
2:16 (Y. Ali) These are they who have bartered Guidance for error: But their traffic is profitless, and they have lost true direction,
2:17 (Y. Ali) Their similitude is that of a man who kindled a fire; when it lighted all around him, Allah took away their light and left them in utter darkness. So they could not see.
——————————————————————————–
2:18 (Y. Ali) Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).
——————————————————————————–
2:19 (Y. Ali) Or (another similitude) is that of a rain-laden cloud from the sky: In it are zones of darkness, and thunder and lightning: They press their fingers in their ears to keep out the stunning thunder-clap, the while they are in terror of death. But Allah is ever round the rejecters of Faith!
2:20 (Y. Ali) The lightning all but snatches away their sight; every time the light (Helps) them, they walk therein, and when the darkness grows on them, they stand still. And if Allah willed, He could take away their faculty of hearing and seeing; for Allah hath power over all things.
Cheers
April 30th, 2009 at 4:41 am
Dear arah,
I just said that I know and read the Quran. I did not claim to be a Muslim. On the contrary!
Well, the war in Iraq is pure nonsense. It’s justification was based on doubtful information, to express it in a very friendly way.
The war in Afghanistan is somewhat different. After the British and American governments discovered that the terrorists of 9/11 were trained in terror camps in Afghanistan they decided to attack the country and to remove the Taliban regime. But they don’t have a really convincing strategy there. The Afghanistan war could be described as some kind of self-defence.
Anyway, I have no Bible verse to support these wars. An attack on someone cannot be based on the Holy Scriptures. At least not on the scriptures I believe in. Those two wars are not religious but political.
It is evident that Mohammed was quite fascinated with the Book of Joshua and Israel’s invasion of the Holy Land and many other passages in the Old Testament. Therefore he set up a kind of new Mosaic law with all the corporal punishments like lapidating etc.
I believe that the Messiah Jesus brought us a new, higher, better law of charity and mercy which abrogated a large part of the Old Testament. For me it does not make sense to revert back to the old-fashioned Sharia Law of Mohammed.
Would you really prefer to live in a country where Sharia Law was introduced? Have you read about the Swat valley in Pakistan where the Taliban have taken over? And do you know of any country where Islam rules and where people are free and happy?
Have a nice day!
April 30th, 2009 at 5:57 am
Carlos,
No matter what someone tells you or tries to explain to you, you still twist things around until they fit what you want to hear or believe. After spending over twenty years, 1969 – 1994, in the US military and having served overseas on several occasions, including two tours in combat zones, I do not have a simplistic view of the world. The world is a complicated place, which requires a certain amount of understand amongst its peoples for peaceful relations to exist. This world cannot exist with a bunch of bullies trying to run it.
You go on and listen to Rush, Bill, and Glen and their ilk, that is the only view of the world you see, a world so full of hate that everybody is out to get you.
I have read the verses that you say are so bad and do not find them as such. Of course I read the whole verse and those that compromise the section they are included in. If you do not read all of the text, but just a small portion you can make almost anything out of it, you can even do it with the Bible.
My basis my feelings towards the Christian faith from personal experience and observation. Not from being told what to think about it from the local Imam. When growing up my first church was the Mennonite church, very lovely people. While serving in the military I went to churches of almost every faith except the Jewish faith in all the areas where I was stationed. I saw everything from prayers to the one true God and the teachings of the Prophet Jesus’ (pbwh), to worshiping graven images and pagan like practices in the Catholic Church. I was attacked and beaten by a couple of men because of my belief and the way I live my life. Whenever I meet a “Christian”, they try to tell me that their way is the only way. When I tell them I am a Muslim, they curse me. So, yeah I believe that members of the Christian faith are a bunch of bigoted bullies.
Until you can sit down and read the Qur’an from cover to cover and try to understand how it was written and its meanings and not nit pick it to death, I may sit down and discuss it with you. Until you can read it and not take verses out of context and then twist them to meet you twisted agenda, then I might sit down and discuss the Qur’an with you, even though I am not a Qur’anic Scholar.
I made my choice to convert, based on what I saw amongst the so-called Christians around the world. After converting and studying the Qur’an, I started to feel more uplifted than I ever had in any of the Christian churches.
Finally, you have convinced me that you do not know any thing about the teachings of the Qur’an than what you can find from Islamaphopic websites or literature.
For all of you out there that have open minds to the worlds religions – Peace be with you all and may Allah watch over you and keep you safe in this uncertain world. My Prayers to all who work to bring peace to this planet.
April 30th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
Shelly K. you obviously base your views on a whole bunch of assumptions. For example you suppose that I got my ideas from “Rush, Bill and Glenn”. “Rush” is probably Rush Limbaugh. As far as I know, he is a conservative radio host. But I have no idea who Bill and Glenn are. The fact is, I am no American. I have not even been to the U.S.A. yet!
Your next assumption is that I only read isolated verses of the Quran. That is simply not true. In the last two to three years I read many passages of the Quran, i.e. not just one verse, but several verses combined, because I know what you can do with Bible verses when you take them out of their context. At the moment I am reading the Quran from beginning to end. I have just finished sura 9 and I will continue.
Of course you are right that almost no non-Muslim knows what is really written in the Quran. And boy, they would be surprised! Even some Muslims are shocked when they read the Quran for the first time. Anyway, at the moment I try to convince all my friends to read the Quran and get an impression for themselves.
I do not doubt your experiences. But you can easily make very negative experiences with Muslims, too. A while ago I discussed the Mohammed caricatures from the Jyllands Posten with a “friend” of mine from Marokko. When he discovered that I did not share his opinion he started shouting at me and expressed strong support for Islamic warfare against unbelievers. A friend of mine almost got beaten up by a Turk for making a slightly critical remark about Mohammed. He barely escaped. Other friends of mine who preach the gospel of Jesus Christ quite openly often receive threats from Muslims, and sometimes they must run. I could give you some more examples from my personal environment.
Above all I would recommend talking to Christians who have fled Islamic countries. We have quite some here. Many of them are Palestinians. The Palestinians really should know better. But they have no remorse harassing their Christian neighbours day by day by day until they finally leave the country…
Shelly, you are right to criticize Christian bigots. They deserve it! But in my view you have a moral duty to criticize aggressive and violent Muslims as well.
April 30th, 2009 at 11:43 pm
Carlos
You seems like a good and decent Christian, you do not have to listen to any one here, do yourself a favor order a book online its called The Bible The Qur’an and science it is written by a French cardiologist. He has done 17+ years of research on them, he is a strong catholic first he learned Arabic with grammar very few people have achieved that. very few people has achieved that. If you are unable to find it let me know I will try to get one for you.
wish you luck.
April 30th, 2009 at 11:45 pm
By the way this book must be read by all Muslims and Christian.
May 1st, 2009 at 12:19 am
My dear Carlos,
It great that you are reading the Quran. Which translation that you used and what is your intention of reading the Quran?
I hope you are reading the translation of the Quran to seek guidance.
May I know whether you believed in ALmighty God the Creator and Jesus is the messenger sent to the house of Israel?
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” (NIV, Mark 12:28-31).
International Standard Version (©2008)
But he replied, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel.”
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Matthew 15:24
And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.” v.10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’
Matt 4:9
Can you explain to me the meaning of the word “Only” in those verse?
My dear Carlos,
As mentioned to you earlier, there are good muslim and non so good muslim in the world and there are good Christian and non so good Christian.
Who are the good Christian
Surah 5:Ayat: 82-83 “And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud. When they listen to that which hath been revealed unto the messenger, thou seest their eyes overflow with tears because of their recognition of the Truth. They say: Our Lord, we believe. Inscribe us as among the witnesses”
Please don’t be included in the following group:
They are certainly disbelievers who say, “Allah is actually the Messiah, the son of Maryam”; whereas the Messiah had said, “O Descendants of Israel, worship Allah Who is my Lord and (also) your Lord”; undoubtedly whoever ascribes partners with Allah, then Allah has forbidden Paradise for him; his destination is hell; and the unjust do not have any supporters.[Maidah 5:72]
They are certainly disbelievers who say, “Indeed Allah is the third of the three Gods”; whereas there is no God except the One God; and if they do not desist from their speech, undoubtedly a painful punishment will reach those among them who die as disbelievers.[Maidah 5:73]
Catholic Priest convert to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvEiTZ-Ruzk
Cheers
May 1st, 2009 at 12:30 am
My dear Nasser
I agree with you this book a must for Muslim and those who are not yet muslim
The Bible, The Qur’an and Science
by Dr. Maurice Bucaille
THE HOLY SCRIPTURES EXAMINED IN THE LIGHT OF MODERN KNOWLEDGE
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/MB_BQS/default.htm
May Allah bless us.
AMEEN
May 1st, 2009 at 5:29 am
Dear arah,
Thank you for the video link to YouTube. I enjoyed it. He is a very nice man.
Here I have two links for you to show you that it works both ways:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdzynL3JJRw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdVnILalpeo
About your quote from sura 5: 82-83: That’s very typical of Mohammed and the Quran. First he flatters the Christians, then he tells them that they are not good enough unless they accept his words and submit to Islam. This verse says what is repeated a thousand times in the Quran: Only Muslims are good people and all the others, whatever they do to serve God and their fellow men, are bad people and will inevitably go to hell.
Contrary to that, I give you my testimony that all that you do, every single good word you say to someone, every kind thought you think will be recorded and you will rewarded for it in this life and in the life after your death. Nothing will be lost!
The translation of the Quran that I use is by Max Henning. It is in German so you probably will not know it.
Let me finally give you an admonition from Matthew 7:
15 Beware of false prohets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Naseer,
Religion and Science it not my main focus at the moment. But thanks for your recommendation. I will keep it in mind.
May 1st, 2009 at 12:51 pm
Dear arah,
Here are some answers to your questions:
Concerning Matthew 15:24, you are right, Jesus himself was exclusively sent to the house of Israel. But he in turn sent others into all the world.
Here is Matthew 28:18-20 (quoted from the King James translation):
“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Of course, the oneness of God is always a great concern among you Muslims. Jesus himself explains the relation between him and the Father:
John 14:
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dewelleth in me, he doeth the works.
An in addition, John 19:
20 Neither pray I [Jesus] for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
What he describes here, is the fact that he and the father form a perfect union. They have exactly the same intents and even look the same, they act and speak the same way. They are in perfect harmony.
There is a quorum called “God” which consists of three personages: God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost.
By the way, Mary is not part of Godhead and nobody ever believed that. Compare sura 5:116. Mohammed simply got that wrong.
May 1st, 2009 at 2:19 pm
My dear Carlos
We can continue our discussion and changing of notes but what is more important is to tell the world to pray and serve to the One and Only Almighty God the Creator
Surah 5: Ayat :17. In blasphemy indeed are those that say that
Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: “Who then hath the least power
against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his
mother, and all every – one that is on the earth? For to Allah
belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is
between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all
things.”
Carlos,Do you mean the following statement by Jesus is wrong?
“Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’
Jesus should have mention TRINITY instead of One.
http://www.jesussaid.co.uk/trinity.htm
Or may be the bible contradict?
Cheers
May 1st, 2009 at 5:34 pm
Christian (April 27th, 2009 at 10:27 am) supposedly listed lines from the Quran, without providing any context.
Check these from the Bible, even though I hardly see Muslims observe this tact:
1) In Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it’s OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.
2) In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants.
3) In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war.
4) In Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins.
5) In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently.
6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.
7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.
I never notice Muslims to do this, when they really should. But the question is WHAT DOES IT PROVE??
Because of your agenda, you also failed to reference that the Muslim Holy Book begins each chapter with “In The Name of God, who is The Most Benificent and The Most compassionate.”
Jane Annette is right, it would do you some good to humble yourself, and actually visit a mosque and take your answers from those that are Muslim, in the spirit of Jesus, for whom you have taken your name sake. Ponder this line from the Quran:
“…and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, ‘We are Christians,’ because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant” (5:82).
May 1st, 2009 at 7:01 pm
Dear arah,
Come on, I explained to you in what way Jesus and the Father are one and I think the reference is pretty clear and not too complicated. Please read my explanation again. Your quotation from the Quran is nice for you to read, but I don’t believe in this imperfect book written by an imperfect man.
Joseph, as a Muslim you surely know the principle of abrogation. We Christians have something comparable, i.e. the later scriptures in the New Testament override a large part of the Old Testament. If you like, you can discuss your Old Testament verses with a Jew, as all these commandments were given exclusively to the Jews. At that time there were no Christians yet.
A principle comparable to the one which you Muslims call abrogation is clearly outlined in the wonderful Sermon on the Mount in Matthew chapters 5 to 7 including. Joseph, you should really read those and the rest of the New Testament. It will do you good.
In Mark 7:9 Jesus quotes a commandment in the Old Testament. Obviously the failure to honor father and mother was punishable by death in Old Testment times among the Jews. Also this punishment was abrogated by the teachings of Jesus. I really had to laugh when I read your comment about this verse, as probably no Christian in 2000 years has twisted this verse the way you have.
Your remarks about Luke 19 are a very typical example of Muslim Bible twisting. You should start reading in verse 11 where it says “…he added and spake a parable…”.
A parable is story which depicts fictitious events. They are useful for teaching a certain gospel principle. What Jesus does here is a little like telling a fairy tale to a child. Parables as well as fairy tales are often quite drastic, but nobody would suppose that they are reality and should be taken literally.
Now let us go to a contradiction in the Quran:
Did God create the earth and the heavens in six day, as is written e.g. in sura 7 verse 54 or did it take him eight day to create the earth, the montains and the heavens as is outlined in sura 41 verses 9 to 12?
May 2nd, 2009 at 1:18 am
My dear Carlos
I will not debate with you either the bible or the Quran. I am just sharing with what in written in the bible and what is written in the translation of the Quran.
Tell me who wrote the bible? How many times Paul met Jesus?
Can that be compare to the divine message from Almighty Creator to Prophet Muhammad for more than 23 years coach by Gibrael and every Ramadhan Gibrael with checked and corrected the reading of Al Quran by Prophet Muhammad.
I hope this site will help
http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?hl=en&q=ahmad+deedat+video&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=xNr7ScDVBYS6jAe7za2WAw&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title#
My dear Carlos do you agree with the following ayats
2:255 (Y. Ali) Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).
2:256 (Y. Ali) Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
May Almighty God the Creator save us and show us the truth.
AMEEN
May 2nd, 2009 at 3:56 am
Dear arah,
Yes, I agree with the verses you cited. Except that in fact there is a very thin line between good and bad, true and false and we all really have to strive to see the difference. This is why the Lord Jesus Christ has sent us the Holy Ghost.
Paul saw Jesus the first time on the road to Damascus (see Acts chapter 9, you should really read it!). When you study the Acts and Paul’s letters carefully you realize that he must have had many visions during his ministry, just as all the great prophets of all times. How great were the visions of John the Revelator who saw the complete history of the earth, including our time.
But, arah, it is no fun if you do not read what I write. It is completely useless if we begin this discussion from scratch again and again.
So, the Quran claims to be a perfect book, in every little detail. I know that it is not perfect at all. That would be a good basis for a discussion, if you are not afraid to enter it.
May 7th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Islam by a majority has no place in the western world. Islam is a way of life for most. There is NO seperation. Yukkkkkk